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	<title>Comments on: GUID Persistence as Zen kōan</title>
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	<description>&#34;truly pathetic verbiage&#34;</description>
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		<title>By: John Graybeal</title>
		<link>http://www.hyam.net/blog/archives/346/comment-page-1#comment-1000</link>
		<dc:creator>John Graybeal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 19:27:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Very well-rounded thinking!  I concur throughout.  A few more related thoughts:

I&#039;m not sure what you mean about persistence of the character strings: I consider these comparable to written words. The language may go away/be forgotten, but a pattern of characters is immutable. Of course their meaning, not so much....

All of the above thinking can be applied to URLs or URNs as well. And any meaning that has been assigned to any of these entitites (e.g., URIs in the semantic web) can be &#039;expropriated&#039; by the community, if it should misuse, misunderstand, and/or misapply a given URI. (Even when the original owner explicitly states a conflicting meaning, it turns out.) 

So your key point for me is, &quot;Who do you trust to maintain a system? So when we are talking about persistence are we really talking about trust?&quot; Yes, trust, and also technical evaluation -- will the network and social environment adopt and support that technical model? Many sincere companies fail to reward an investment, not because they aren&#039;t trustworthy, but because they did not produce a successful product or outcome. So it will go with URIs, in various times and ways.

So I conclude that any identifier that isn&#039;t resolvable in all browsers (e.g., dois and urns) will always suffer from limited adoption, for social reasons, and the additional &#039;persistence&#039; obtained by the URIs &quot;designed for persistence&quot; can be roughly matched by social and technical mechanisms overlaid on plain old URLs. The choice of URI matters, but no URI mechanism perfectly avoids the pitfalls. So yes, use what works today, and seems likely to work tomorrow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well-rounded thinking!  I concur throughout.  A few more related thoughts:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what you mean about persistence of the character strings: I consider these comparable to written words. The language may go away/be forgotten, but a pattern of characters is immutable. Of course their meaning, not so much&#8230;.</p>
<p>All of the above thinking can be applied to URLs or URNs as well. And any meaning that has been assigned to any of these entitites (e.g., URIs in the semantic web) can be &#8216;expropriated&#8217; by the community, if it should misuse, misunderstand, and/or misapply a given URI. (Even when the original owner explicitly states a conflicting meaning, it turns out.) </p>
<p>So your key point for me is, &#8220;Who do you trust to maintain a system? So when we are talking about persistence are we really talking about trust?&#8221; Yes, trust, and also technical evaluation &#8212; will the network and social environment adopt and support that technical model? Many sincere companies fail to reward an investment, not because they aren&#8217;t trustworthy, but because they did not produce a successful product or outcome. So it will go with URIs, in various times and ways.</p>
<p>So I conclude that any identifier that isn&#8217;t resolvable in all browsers (e.g., dois and urns) will always suffer from limited adoption, for social reasons, and the additional &#8216;persistence&#8217; obtained by the URIs &#8220;designed for persistence&#8221; can be roughly matched by social and technical mechanisms overlaid on plain old URLs. The choice of URI matters, but no URI mechanism perfectly avoids the pitfalls. So yes, use what works today, and seems likely to work tomorrow.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Belbin</title>
		<link>http://www.hyam.net/blog/archives/346/comment-page-1#comment-824</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Belbin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 07:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You have brought it back to where I thought it was at the time of the first GUID meeting: Ultimately we rely on people - and people are fallible.

Next essay: Transparency?

Lee</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have brought it back to where I thought it was at the time of the first GUID meeting: Ultimately we rely on people &#8211; and people are fallible.</p>
<p>Next essay: Transparency?</p>
<p>Lee</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Hobern</title>
		<link>http://www.hyam.net/blog/archives/346/comment-page-1#comment-821</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Hobern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hyam.net/blog/?p=346#comment-821</guid>
		<description>Roger - I think another way to state your point is that persistent GUIDs are not like the set of natural numbers.  They are much more like nouns in a natural language - the use of GUIDs is just a part of the field of semiotics.  At any point in time a GUID is just a handle to a potentially shifting set of assertions about the world.  Over time, the user community can judge whether or not a data provider is sufficiently respecting the intent behind a GUID, but these judgments can&#039;t be absolute.  In most of the situations we face, this is probably not really an issue.  Natural language is stable enough for contemporaries to communicate and reason about the world.  That is what we need with our GUIDs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger &#8211; I think another way to state your point is that persistent GUIDs are not like the set of natural numbers.  They are much more like nouns in a natural language &#8211; the use of GUIDs is just a part of the field of semiotics.  At any point in time a GUID is just a handle to a potentially shifting set of assertions about the world.  Over time, the user community can judge whether or not a data provider is sufficiently respecting the intent behind a GUID, but these judgments can&#8217;t be absolute.  In most of the situations we face, this is probably not really an issue.  Natural language is stable enough for contemporaries to communicate and reason about the world.  That is what we need with our GUIDs.</p>
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		<title>By: Rod Page</title>
		<link>http://www.hyam.net/blog/archives/346/comment-page-1#comment-818</link>
		<dc:creator>Rod Page</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>All your GUIDs are belong to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All your GUIDs are belong to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Croft</title>
		<link>http://www.hyam.net/blog/archives/346/comment-page-1#comment-817</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Croft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hyam.net/blog/?p=346#comment-817</guid>
		<description>my head hurts...  if a GUID fell over in a deserted forest, would any one hear?  would anyone notice?
ah, stupid question...  Rod would...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>my head hurts&#8230;  if a GUID fell over in a deserted forest, would any one hear?  would anyone notice?<br />
ah, stupid question&#8230;  Rod would&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Rod Page</title>
		<link>http://www.hyam.net/blog/archives/346/comment-page-1#comment-816</link>
		<dc:creator>Rod Page</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Wonderful essay, I feel inspired (chastised, even) to never speak of this again, and instead focus on making stuff happen...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful essay, I feel inspired (chastised, even) to never speak of this again, and instead focus on making stuff happen&#8230;</p>
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